Overcoming Burnout in Cyber Security: Navigating Stress and Prioritizing Mental Health with Mwanawa

Feeling burnt out? We're here to assure you that you're not alone. In this riveting discussion, our brilliant guest, Mwanawa, joins us to tackle a problem that we've noticed creeping into the lives of cyber security professionals across the spectrum - burnout. From seasoned veterans to eager beginners, everyone seems to be feeling the pressure of pushing their limits. But it's time we understood that slowing down doesn't mean stopping and it's okay to catch your breath. 

We unravel the complexities of burnout, particularly in the remote work setting. Here's a thought - what if taking a break didn't make you feel guilty? Trust us, it's possible and we're here to guide you. We'll share some interesting strategies like taking PTO, disconnecting notifications, or even indulging in gardening or camping. All of these can help you escape the 'always on' mindset. Drawing from Mwanawa's personal experiences, we dive into the importance of recognizing when to step away from your work.

Finally, we circle back to how crucial perseverance is - it's about pushing beyond comfort zones but within healthy boundaries. We walk you through our own stories of dealing with burnout, the challenges of maintaining relationships, and even some light-hearted weekend safety brief anecdotes. In the spirit of Memorial Day Weekend, we emphasize the importance of checking in with our veteran brothers and sisters and remind everyone of the need to prioritize mental health. So sit back, tune in, and remember, it's not a crime to ask for help or take a break when you need one.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome everybody. It is me, it is the cyber warrior, this is cyber warrior studios, and I know you are all here for another amazing episode of security happy hour And, as always, we always aim to deliver. We, you know it's the fun, the conversation, the beer, we're all here for it. So if you, i promise, if you just hang around for like 10 seconds, we'll be right back And we're back again And actually with that we got there. It is the official start security happy hour And we're here with it And I have with me my guests. At this time, when I was Harvard, the one and only got it right.

Speaker 1: 0:58

Please make sure you share this stream. Let people know we're here, we're live and we are in at the win. Today We were talking a very important topic, that topic being burnout and perseverance, and I know this is of the utmost importance to quite a few people right now. But, seeing as how, when I was the one to propose the topic, please let us know what is its importance to you and what are you dealing with.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Okay, and it might sound, when I thought about this, like the might sound a little odd that, as new as I am to this, I'm talking about burnout already, not necessarily that I burnt out yet, And I say yet because I'm, you know, running into a lot of people. Everybody I know from you know people who've done this for decades to people who just started a couple months ago are starting to feel like they're starting to feel like one arm paper hangers, they're doing too much and they're starting to feel like they're having to push themselves past a point that is really healthy. No, no, a few people who are. I mean, they had their hands full because that's what they do, That's their job. So it's just. This is one of those fields that, more than any other one that I've been in and more than most of them that I know about, seems to it lends itself to you know the possibility of, as I say, wearing yourself down to the nub very quickly And just you know. I thought it was important to talk about and figure out ways to avoid that you know, to be able to do your job and to be able to do everything effectively without you know burning yourself out. You know, completely, completely, just burn your fuse down and just gone. You know, in the perseverance part that's, the flip side of that coin is, yeah, you do have to keep pushing at it, you do have to keep going, you do have to have that, never die, never give up spirit. But you also have to know when to, when to break, when to take a break, when to calm down, to slow down a little bit, not quit, but say you know what? I'm already at 9.8. And this is going to, this is taking me, this is going to take me off the meter and let me slow down a little bit here. So I probably have more questions and answers on that.

Speaker 2: 3:13

Like I said, I'm kind of kind of new to this, but I just, you know, kind of want to hear from your perspective what you do, what you think is the best way to go about that, from other people. You know everybody in the, in the chat. You know what they have to say about what they do keep from burning out if they never burn out. I know a couple people I don't understand. I don't understand how they don't. I know a few people is like Okay, I'm writing three books and then I'm teaching a class. Then I'm doing this over here, I'm also doing, you know, handstands and wind sprints And I'm like, How are you doing that? How so? but you know, those also aren't people that say they say I never burn out, and it's not possible. There are some people, like I said, they're like Oh no, I'm fine, I'm always fine, That's not like dangerous territory.

Speaker 1: 3:59

It is very dangerous because it means they're not taking a look at themselves and they're probably neglecting a lot of other things in our lives and constantly looking for that next fix of education or cyber or something like that. And, let's be honest, i felt burnout. I did. I literally wanted to quit everything Because back a few years ago I was when I first started this channel I was doing five videos a week for five, something like that, plus I was doing my full time job, plus I was a father, plus I'm a husband, and on top of that I still got yard work and things around the house to do. And then I was still furthering my education and doing research and learning, and CTFs hack the box, everything like that. And so very quickly I thought I could handle it, like I love this shit, there's no way I can get burnout on something I love. Like it's impossible, no, you can't. And so it got to the point I was. I realized I was neglecting my family. I was neglecting my job because I was getting to a point where I was like I only want to do my job. No, and I would like be on social media or be doing this as a way to kind of be like oh, i'm being creative, i'm doing something, so I don't have to worry about it. But the reality of it was I started pulling away from everything I love doing And I realized I got to stop, i got to slow down, i got to figure things out And for me it was cutting back on the amount of videos I was doing. As far as long form. I got to cut back on, like being dedicated to things like technical, as far as tech Tuesdays, like my content code, because my job allows me to be technical, my job allows me to do a lot of different things, but as far as content goes, that's not what I wanted to be. So me it was more of a chore, and it still is more of a tour. I'll do it on occasion, but it's more of a tour of me to do technical content versus this show. And I didn't walk with me and all the motivational stuff that I do. So you know, i had to reevaluate who I am, what I want to do and what's important, and it took a lot of work and I didn't realize I was burning out till I was burnt out. I recognized the signs And so for me, i literally walk away. I go, since I.

Speaker 1: 6:18

A big problem in this industry, and a lot of industries, is you're given unlimited PTO or even if you're giving PTO like two, three weeks a year, whatever it would be, people refuse to take it Like. I got to be at work. I got to be at work. I got to be at work. Things will fall apart if I'm not there or I'll have a million emails to answer when I get back. And I tell all of my people if you go on PTO, i better not see you sign in the team, i better not see you sign in to work, because PTO is for you. That is who is for you. Be with your family, be with your friends, go through, step away, work when you get back, don't worry about it. We got you And that way you can recover and rejuvenate. That is how I see coming back and avoiding that. The burnout is taking PTO And if you haven't limited, take one week before.

Speaker 2: 7:17

What do you I'm not trying to flip this into me interviewing you, but what do you although I will what do you think might be some reason, some cause that people just absolutely cannot I won't say will not, but absolutely cannot make themselves not do anything Like take PTO and actually be you know the old part of the be, actually be off. It's not part time on, my part time, halfway there, it's. Do not worry about this. Right now, Reset, rejuvenate, regroup, and there's just a lot of people and I said particularly a lot of people that I've run across in this field. They just like can't do it, cannot, just can't.

Speaker 1: 8:03

It's not, it's a choice.

Speaker 2: 8:05

We all make choices in life.

Speaker 1: 8:06

We choose how we want to live our lives, and I talk about it. a lot is the way you feel with way you deal with things is all a choice. So for me, what I started doing is, if I take PTO, i cut off notifications on my phone.

Speaker 2: 8:20

If.

Speaker 1: 8:20

I don't completely remove an application altogether. When I take PTO, i'm there for family. That's the important thing. Now I may still do content, i may do shorts or something like that, but it's separate from work. But again, that's because I have found a way to separate my content from the cybersecurity side. I am now more motivational, more inspirational, do things more about you know, kind of that route, with the exception of security happy hours, so I can still do my content and not feel overwhelmed or get burned out by it. But when I cut myself off from cybersecurity and tech, a lot of times I disable notifications and I'm done. I'll go work in a yard, i'll go camping, i'll go somewhere where there's no cell service. He's like guess what? Then you don't have an option Go where there's no cell service and you ain't got a choice. I need to get my. Oh, oh, no, no.

Speaker 2: 9:11

That's something that I've just gotten, kind of gotten not new to, but, you know, reallowing myself to do that, like I said, i've got this new job that I work every day. but I work, you know, most days and it's usually in the evening, so I wasn't realizing how tired I was getting. Like I'd be the end of a class and I'd just be like, oh my God, what just happened, because it is teaching is a little tiring. Cyber security is thought intensive. So I'm like why is this going on?

Speaker 2: 9:45

Turned off my phone today, didn't answer any messages till about six o'clock. I feel like a brand new woman. but it took a second of being like no, i don't have to keep hopping up to see if this email is sent. No, i don't have to read about this particular thing today, it'll still be there tomorrow. And, just like I said, trying to switch off, switch off. that got to be always on mentality, that I guess it. and it's really easy to get, get swept up into it, because when you see everybody around you doing all this stuff all the time, it's like if I don't do all the stuff, all the things all the time, i'm not going to be able to keep up.

Speaker 1: 10:25

So one of our good friends posts about burnout and mental health and taking a break, and he just did so. Today I saw that J J Davy, straight up, pointed out. And so here's the thing you will realize, those that have actually lived that life and gotten burnout and know it's possible and have been dealt with imposter syndrome and have dealt with everything else are starting to come out the woodwork and tell you that you need to take a break. And one of the things that I'm a man is coming up here in a second because, right in line with hers, one of the things it took When I was in the military. If I took leave, i was still working. I was still making phone calls. I was still doing things. I was still working 24, seven. It did not stop Whether I was on leave on duty, if it was a four day weekend, if it was just at night, i was always working. I did it all the time. And then when I retired, it was the same way. I was always working. I was like I am available, let's talk, let's work, let's do this, this, this and this. It wasn't until 2020. Near the end of 2020.

Speaker 1: 11:36

We actually, probably about mid year, we went to Tennessee. That was the first time ever in my life and career. I cut everything off and said I am only going to be there with my family. It was the most refreshing thing I had ever done. And so, from then on, what I had started doing and I'm going to put this up is setting boundaries Where, after a certain time so let's just say eight to five is your schedule time to work, which we all know in this field.

Speaker 1: 12:06

You can work late, you can work early, there's a bunch of different things, but let's just say you have to be there eight to five. Fine, if I got to be sitting at my computer from eight to five, then at five o'clock, i'm done. You can't talk to me, i'm out. I'm not even gonna look at the computer. I might have my notifications on, just in case something serious happens, because that's the type of person I am. But if it's just, hey, can we get this done? Yeah, tomorrow when I show back up, or actually, in this case, tuesday when I'm back at work, sure.

Speaker 2: 12:37

Yeah, I'll do it. Don't let it be a long weekend and you want to throw something at me at 455 on a Friday?

Speaker 1: 12:43

precisely So. That is one of those things that you have to set those boundaries And and Amanda says it right here Not in the industry yet, but general burnout tactic I have is setting boundaries not only with others but most importantly with myself, and that is vital you have to. When I walk, you know this, especially in the Dealing with spirituality and things like that, you have to have that introspective look at yourself and know who you are inside And know when to just be like you know what I gotta stop.

Speaker 2: 13:17

I'm cuz. Otherwise, if you're looking for, if you're looking for all of it From outside of you, then you're never, you're never gonna be full.

Speaker 1: 13:25

No.

Speaker 1: 13:25

I'm gonna be looking, and so you've got to be able to sit back, take that look and like you know what? something's not right, something here is not right. I got a step away. And that's where your meditation, your nature walks, your, your Calisthenics you're working out, whatever the case may be. That's where all that comes into play, because then You can, however, you meditate, which isn't just sitting cross-legged and meditating, no, no, no. However, you focus That's that's what you need to do and really figure out who you are, what's going on, and re-center yourself. Once you're re-centered, once you have that balance again, then okay, then we can go back to figure out. What do I need to do to move further, to do more things, and And that would be how that works out, but so many people are afraid to do that. They're afraid to look inside. Everything is about the outside.

Speaker 2: 14:19

It's very true, that's very true.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Let's see another one from Amanda. When I started a business, i made myself get a separate phone and nothing business related was on my phone. When I was done working or taking a day off, i turned that phone off and leave it at home. Oh, that's a good one, it's a really good one. Yeah, i don't have a work phone. I keep saying I might get one, just so I don't have random people calling my phone.

Speaker 2: 14:46

But I haven't done it like my company.

Speaker 1: 14:48

I work for stratus scale. They'll pay for my now, but I just I'm like Work in a hassle and like wait for it, and then I have two phones.

Speaker 2: 14:58

Yeah, it's, i don't know, exciting. It's. It's kind of There was no fine line, things like you know. Like I said earlier, perseverance being in, and the flip side of burnout and perseverance is I was going somewhere with this. I was going going somewhere with this. What did you just say about being accessible but Not being too accessible?

Speaker 1: 15:21

Yeah, like it So. So here's the way, and this is I'm interviewing people now for a senior role and and one of the things I tell people is You know, i don't necessarily keep hours, right, i'm lucky to have a senior role, right, i'm not gonna sit here and expect you to be there eight to five, nine to five, whatever the case may be. Expect your work to get done. Your work It's done, great.

Speaker 1: 15:41

However, because of that, and because I'm not looking for you to put in nine, ten, eleven, twelve hours a day, if I need you late at night because something came up with a client, i am expecting to be able to get a hold of you because I'm giving you your time to do whatever. So, if you need a lunch break for two, three hours because you've got an appointment and you got all these other things to do and you got Family activities and everything like that, great, go do it. You need to go pick your kids up and go hang out with them Great, go do it. You, you've got you know hockey and all this other stuff with your family, great, go do it. But at the same time, if I got a client that gets breached and I call you at ten o'clock at night because I need you to come in and do some. I already do some other work for me. I don't want to hear, oh, i can't be there, i, oh, i'm just waking up or done it. No, no, no, get your coffee.

Speaker 2: 16:33

There's a trade-off there for that kind of yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:36

And that's something that is not as it's another another kind of difference in in this field from any One that I've been in before. It was, you know, her offices that I worked at. If your lunch break was from 12 o'clock to 1 o'clock and you came strolling in there at 101, you were gonna get caught on the carpet and it was gonna just be a big ugly mess And I'm just like, okay, over one minute that I probably at some point in time have worked through lunch. You know, and it's all like I said, you know, burnt myself down to the nub for You know, for you to be, you know at me about this one minute.

Speaker 2: 17:15

That is one of those things that seems kind of cool. There is kind of cool about cybersecurity is, if you know in the right office, in the right organization, sure, you might, they might expect you, you know to be, you know ready for you know ready for action at 11 o'clock at night Sometimes. But if you have a doctor's appointment that runs 30 minutes over, you're not gonna hear about that for the next three months and why you're not, you're responsible, and why you know this, you're not gonna deal with that and what you'll find in a lot of these good companies And I do got a question here from a Sarnay are, or infinite and probability AI.

Speaker 1: 17:53

But what you'll find in a lot of these companies that are now Understanding more about the industry and more about the field and you have a lot of these younger managers coming up is that look as long as you're at your meetings, right. So if you, especially for client facing, if you attend your client meetings and client work is getting done, i Don't, i'm not logging your time. I'm not sitting here looking at whether or not you're logged in nine hours a day or ten hours a day. So it's about as long as the work is getting done and the company's making money, what do I care? I don't care what you do with your day. But again, that comes down to a. We don't work in an office, we're all remote and be. If I call you at 11 o'clock at night or one o'clock in the morning or you know whatever, especially if you're on call because we're working on on on call schedules and you don't answer, we got bigger issues on me because now I'm giving you freedom and then you're not there when I need you.

Speaker 1: 18:52

Great and that's and that's the big thing. But I do have a good question here, and when I was Well, this one might be good for you to answer. Even though I might answer I will, I will answer it as well. One of the first steps in dealing with burnout is recognizing the signs. What do you consider to be the signs of burning out?

Speaker 2: 19:12

I Was safe. For me personally, my concentration isn't quite the same. You know, other parts of my life seem to. Everything just seems a little bit a skew. It's like working quite right and I'm getting in arguments with everybody in my family. I personally get stress, headaches And like, like you know, like you were saying, it's sometimes it's hard to know the signs going into it before you until you're into it.

Speaker 2: 19:42

No, it's important to know for you individually, before you wind up. Just, you know, weight in the depths of you know, screw it all, burn out. I'm not doing any of this at all. See y'all later by, as it is a very you know it's very individual thing. But you know for, for, not you know, as far as your job, you know not Not feeling like you care as much about what you care about what you're doing, but you're just you're, you're not as sharp and it's just a whole combination of things. It's a very, no, very individual, but those are kind of the. The big three for me is I can tell you know, i start getting a headache and one eye. That means okay, you need to slow down. I'm real crabby and just snarking at everybody and I'm not. My focus is just, no matter how much I try to concentrate, it's just not. Things are just bouncing off my brain. They're not getting in there, they're just kind of sliding off.

Speaker 1: 20:37

Yeah, you get that ADHD like to an extreme where it's like nothing's ever nothing is You know you're all over the place all the time.

Speaker 1: 20:44

Yes, so, like my thing is, i Did not realize Burnout symptoms until it was too late, because I had never felt it before, or at least I did. Maybe I had and not realize it right. It's one of those things where I just didn't really click for me, but I for me it's definitely when you know long, when you start to realize you don't enjoy what you're doing anymore. Now, by that time it might be a little too late. But that was the biggest thing for me is I no longer enjoyed Hacking. I no longer into well, offensive security. I no longer enjoyed. You know, my job is a whole Content. As much as I love helping people. I felt like I was kind of just there, like I was just, you know, phoning it in and not really me.

Speaker 2: 21:33

You're not your heart. Your heart in your, your hands, barely in it. In your heart's definitely not. And you're just telling me What am I doing this for?

Speaker 1: 21:39

Yeah, there was there was so much, and then, on top of that, i was depressed. I was extremely depressed. I was taking it out on my family. I was yelling at my kids when I shouldn't been, for like the dumbest shit, like there was no reason for me to be doing it. And I was, and You know, me and my wife, we were just having issues because I was not being the husband I should have been, and so There was a lot that went into it.

Speaker 1: 22:04

But it wasn't until I cut things off that I realized, oh shit, i burn out right like I was burning the candle at both ends and probably even a third end in the middle somewhere. Like I, literally this thing was burning hot and burning quick And I didn't realize it and you think you're.

Speaker 2: 22:22

You think you're fine because, well, some people don't think they're fine, but you think you're fine because you're busy. It's like, okay, i can't be completely just tapped out because, look how much stuff I'm getting done. It's like, well, that's kind of the burn part of the burnout. That's that's, you know, the and it's it's knowing, you know, knowing the difference between what, for you, is, you know, some people, some people, just you know, can get closer, look closer, to ribbon in the red and that's there, that's how they, that's how they operate And they're able to do that. Some people cannot even get right here without being like, okay, you know what. This is affecting everything and I only got, you know, a little bit fine, finite amount of energy that is quickly getting sapped. I need to do something like. I don't know who said it. Somebody in chat said something like, something like the further you, the longer it takes you to realize, to get at it, the longer it's gonna take you to get back.

Speaker 1: 23:24

That's, that's Griffin, and yeah, it's right here The longer you wait, the longer recovery takes, and and it's so true.

Speaker 1: 23:34

But Amanda put it right here I realize I'm getting there when I start to not enjoy what I'm doing. If somebody in cybersecurity, somebody like myself, who has always enjoyed breaking into shit, always I could sit there on hack the box and literally up until I went for my Gram and OSCP, i had cleared out every hack the box machine except for the two hardest ones. Every single one was gone. And After I got done with grim, then I did my OSCP, plus I was working full-time In a position of pen testing. I was just not. I was spent. Plus all of my my content, everything else I was doing, i Was spent. I was like I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 1: 24:16

And then, as you get into a role of a pen tester and then you realize, well, it's a lot of paperwork and then, well, we didn't have a ton of clients coming in at the time for the old company I worked for, so I was doing a lot of presale shit. I wasn't necessarily doing pen testing, but then I was like learning pen testing, it was just, it was a whole head. I was like I'm done, i quit. And so that was the year, because that was 2020. That was the year when I took vacation.

Speaker 2: 24:41

It was the first time I realized Clearing my phone, killing notifications, killing everything was the best thing I could do because 2020 was that year for a whole lot of people because we had to scream, so some of it some of it would be had to scream to a Hall. So I think a lot of people realized then that they were Have been pushing themselves to a point that really wasn't healthy. Yes, because we had the sense deal.

Speaker 1: 25:05

Well, not just that, but when you, i've been working remote since 2018. Right. So before the pandemic, before all that bull should happen, i was working remotely. I have not been to an office to work Since that time. So you're looking at five years now that I've been remote and not step foot in an office for as a working environment.

Speaker 1: 25:28

The last company I worked for was we got together for like a gathering. They did some marketing shit, we took some headshots and did some other stuff, but it wasn't necessarily for work. That was the only time I'd gone to that office, besides to pick up my equipment and a drop off actually, no, i didn't drop off my equipment, i think I'd mailed it back, so to pick up my equipment, and so I've not seen offices. So, for me, what I do, especially in this field, if you can avoid being in an office and working remote and personally, i will not work at an odd, at a job that requires me to go to the office at all. If, if Showing up to an office is required, i won't take the job, i'll be up. No, i'm done, and the reason for that is for two reasons. One, working from home, i get more work done than I'll ever get done in an office, because in an office I'm a walk around, i'm a bullshit with people, i'm a talk.

Speaker 2: 26:19

You be talking, you'll be outside smoking, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:24

First off out of the army. I got yelled at for how much I smoke. First up out of the army because I was a Manager, slash, consultant, slash, it was a whole thing and I got paid shit. I got paid like 60 grand a year and I'm like you're paying me this much money to be technically a manager every hour. I was outside smoking and People were bitching because they looked through the window see me out at the smoke pit and then they start complaining like oh.

Speaker 1: 26:49

He's out there all the time I've worked this done. Shut the hell up.

Speaker 2: 26:53

I went through that. I haven't smoked cigarettes in probably five years, but I would get that all the time like, okay, i need to get up for a second so I can reset my brain Right, so I can come back to what I'm doing and have it make sense to me and to you. She's out there smoking again. You know what.

Speaker 1: 27:09

I did the best in the army the, the and this is what people don't understand and And the reason I'm kind. One of the reasons I'm kind of like this is in the army. That's where work got done was at the smoke pit, because you'd go out there you'd smoke, you talk, you like, hey, i need x, y and z. Alright, cool, hey, can you do you know a, b and c for me? Yeah, i got you, no worries, and you go back in and get done, as opposed through the bureaucracy and the red tape and the paperwork and all the other BS, smoked pits and bars or where work is where people tend to What.

Speaker 2: 27:47

Oh yeah, yeah, there's, there's, you know, lot, like you said less red tape, less All the formality that people are trying to know. I'm gonna make sure I do this right, like, look, this is what I need, yeah, this is what I can do for you, okay, well, can you do this like this Absolutely, and it's not all the well. I've got to send this form to so and so, and that form had send that, the form to so and so, is that? that can add to a lot of job stress. A lot of burnout too is having to go through. I Want to call them extra steps because I'm not gonna say, you know, for everybody's situation, you know everybody's office. They might be very, very valid reasons that they're doing it the way that they're doing it, but it just never seems to be as as smooth and as efficient as it could be Without all that extra jump.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Oh for sure. and now, misha, misha, i'm glad you show up, man you know what. I'm up in, they show up in droves. I love it, but Misha got a great question here, and So when I walk, you are working at a college, correct?

Speaker 2: 28:52

Sort of kind of no, actually, more than yes. I am working for a company that does All kinds of different boot camps for over. I'm the minus. The one I'm doing is cybersecurity teaching and Is it remote?

Speaker 1: 29:11

It is remote, yes.

Speaker 2: 29:12

Yeah, i'm nowhere near the college that I work at. I've never even been to this state, so okay, so.

Speaker 1: 29:18

So then, all right. I'm asking, because then that means you're working remotely. We can both answer this question What do you do for burnout when you don't have PTO and you don't have a place to take a break from it all due to work at home jobs?

Speaker 2: 29:34

Somebody actually already Earlier, early up in this, in this scroll, said what I, what I always do I get in my car and I drive and I listen to Amanda, amanda, yeah and I scream and I sing and you know if you see me going down the street, you know, listen to Queen really loud and wave of arms a lot. Mind your business, that's what I do. I go out and take walks as another thing that I do.

Speaker 1: 30:03

So me personally. Now I get PTO. The last three companies I worked for had unlimited PTO. I try to make it a point to take a week off every quarter, but it doesn't always happen, because I'm one of those people that if I have meetings I got homie. Don't be putting your hand in front of my camera, we'll be fighting. I hope you put, i'm sorry, my youngest son. I don't know if you saw it, my youngest son. I saw his hand or something. His hand was like you know right here, I saw it.

Speaker 1: 30:32

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, i'm a whoops, you're right.

Speaker 2: 30:37

Ooh, ooh, you got, and you got five of those.

Speaker 1: 30:41

He's my youngest, oh my goodness. So so yeah. So for me you know I go outside a lot, i take my smoke breaks and literally I will get up for my computer. It could be 30 minutes after I had a cigarette, it could be an hour, it could be two hours, depends what I'm doing I don't feel, because I'm remote, i don't feel the need to like put a limit on it, like if I'm stressed and I'm just dealing with a ton of stuff, i'll get up every 15, 20 minutes, every five, six, seven minutes If my brain keeps getting into a knot, which that's indicative of something.

Speaker 2: 31:16

Usually, you know if I'm getting frustrated that often. But if I need to get up, and you know, until it makes sense or until that knot gets out of my brain, i'm not gonna set myself the time like, okay, well, i'll work for an hour and then I can take 30 minutes. You know, if it's just not, if it's a day where that's just not working, if I can work for 10 minutes and then take a 20 minute break, if that's one of the good things that need. Things about working from home, you know. I mean especially if you have, i know, some remote offices doing now where I don't even really understand it, where you have to be at your keyboard, the people always talking about doing getting mouse jigglers and all this stuff, and I'm just like, why are you even setting yourself up for that? Why, even so that I don't know anything about all that There are?

Speaker 1: 32:04

companies and I know this because and I'm not gonna speak on who I know someone that if it doesn't show them active and logged into teams or whatever they're using for time or whatever nine hours a day minus whatever your lunch break is they get yelled at.

Speaker 2: 32:21

Yeah, and I just I don't understand how like I said, i'm not a manager, but I don't understand how you can have people that work with you and for you work efficiently like that, because, no, i just I don't know.

Speaker 1: 32:34

If anybody, anybody who grew up in office to work, especially homie, quit trying to get in front of my camera, especially in the, you know, any type of like white collar. I don't even know what you call cybersecurity, i don't know, but it'd be like blue collar, white collar, it would be more white collar, but I don't. A soul. No, no, no. Sky blue maybe.

Speaker 2: 32:58

Sky blue collar With white Powder blue collar is it? No, it's not a collar at all, it's a hoodie.

Speaker 1: 33:05

There you go, all right.

Speaker 1: 33:06

So if you work in the hoodie industry, you know, and even it's been in for a while understand that in an office work doesn't get done because you've constantly got people at your door, you've constantly got people coming to your office or always in meetings there's always something going on. So the reality of it is the amount of work people think that gets done in office doesn't actually get done because you're only working while it gets done. But you're only working like four hours a day. You're actually working probably half of your day. The other half to you know three quarters is spent talking, smoking, bsing, whatever eating. You name it social media, it is what it is Whereas at home you will work past the work time just because you're like. You know what? I realize I've been out like all day. I've had appointments.

Speaker 1: 33:56

I got shit that needs to get done. I'm just gonna get it done, and because you have not had you're not driving.

Speaker 2: 34:02

You can get in that zone. You know you can get in that zone. You know everybody knows about getting in the zone where you kind of just flow and there's nobody coming to your door, not, not, not. Well, now, what can you do? Oh, oh, oh, that's the worst. It was like oh my. God, I was doing it and you came in and stuck your head in the door.

Speaker 1: 34:22

When I was in an office I didn't have that issue because nobody I wasn't. It was an office shared of people who was. It wasn't cubicles, it was just different desks. I'm gonna whoop your ass on me.

Speaker 2: 34:34

Oh, somebody's going to forget it when the show is over, right? So?

Speaker 1: 34:37

it's just one of those things. So, Misha, to be completely honest, to kind of follow up on this question, you know if you don't have PTO, you need to work for a new company, And I know where you're at, Misha. So if the company you are currently with doing pharmaceutical shit, you need to find a new one until you can get into cybersecurity, because you should have PTO. And when you take PTO you shut everything off, You don't answer shit, you don't answer calls. You should have numbers of work numbers stored in your phone so that you know you can hit, ignore and say fuck you. Like that's the point you need to get to is being able to say fuck you, I'm not here. Holy shit, Jack's ass. I saw that.

Speaker 2: 35:26

That was funny, he's smiling. I was like, hey, jack's is in the house.

Speaker 1: 35:30

I love it. Jess Bishop's, here I feel blue. James Giles or Giles. I don't know how to pronounce his last name. Everybody's in the house.

Speaker 2: 35:41

Jay in here. Jay Stollard, did I see you in here? Jeff, Jerry, jerry, jerry, jerry I don't know where Jerry hold on.

Speaker 1: 35:48

I gotta find him. Did I see him? He is here, stollard is here Speak up. Jerry Stollard there he is. I think yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:56

He's like that too. Nobody calls him Jerry, that's it.

Speaker 1: 35:59

Jack is also here, in case you're wondering.

Speaker 2: 36:02

Yeah, hey, jack, saw you two.

Speaker 1: 36:04

The one who has been dealing with a lot of shit. We're not gonna get into it. That's his business, but he's in the house again, so thank you, jack, for showing up Amanda starring in AR Griffin, infosec the Landsharks. So that's my boy, william Bailey.

Speaker 2: 36:17

Andrea. I just wanted to say congratulations to Andrea personally.

Speaker 1: 36:21

Oh, actually, yeah, So I don't know if she put it out yet She did, but I didn't cause I didn't see the post She did. All right, so she did. You saw the post. Yes, you see the post, all right, i did not see the post.

Speaker 2: 36:33

I did, I did.

Speaker 1: 36:36

If I, if I, if I did, i did. okay, i'm sitting here like don't have me getting beat up. I saw it. You're right. I know I think about it. I saw it. Look, it's been a hot minute, All right, it's been a long day.

Speaker 2: 36:44

I know it's fine, but I'm not trying to get beat up before because of your own memory lapses.

Speaker 1: 36:49

No, you won't, Because Andrea will come after me and yell at me for not remembering. So you're okay, But I do remember now. And yes, for everybody out there Andrea Myler has, who has been a huge supporter of this show, especially since he's been on and found us, one of my, one of my warriors, someone I promote a little time just recently today, Pastor Security Plus. So kudos, Andrea, I love you. Thank you for passing that, or else I would have had to like find you down in Atlanta or wherever the hell you're at these days and whoop your ass because, come on, girl, you you know your shit. Like had you failed that, me and you would have been fighting, Just saying I'm the only person.

Speaker 2: 37:34

So so That's between y'all. I'm not getting into this Andrea.

Speaker 1: 37:39

I love Andrea. She always yells at me like if I say something, like if I, if I ever like, have a bad day. this is why I love her, because she'll yell at you. What the hell's your bad day for? because I'm broke up on the wrong side of the bed. Well, go back in your bed and find the right side.

Speaker 2: 38:01

That's funny. At all the times I've heard that phrase about getting up on the wrong side of the bed. I'll think I've ever heard anybody give that answer. Andrea, andrew's the only answer. It's like well, when you figure out where the right one is, then come back and see me. I love Andrea.

Speaker 1: 38:17

Andrea will always be my sister, one of our warriors. Of course, within the family, i love her to death. But let's talk about perseverance a little bit, because we are about 40 minutes in And that's another big thing because we're going to find different areas. So burnout is one of those things. Again, we talked about perseverance, a whole different concept, and this is where I think my lovely one now.

Speaker 2: 38:46

I'm sorry I got distracted. Somebody else passed the cizer, which really meant a lot to me. Focus I'm focused.

Speaker 1: 38:53

Oh, it's not on AR.

Speaker 2: 38:56

Oh, it's not on AR. Congratulations buddy, i'm so sorry. That's my brother from the Army. Let me focus over here.

Speaker 1: 39:03

My brother from the Army. It's OK, But perseverance what does that mean to you And why is that so important?

Speaker 2: 39:12

That means to me, that means not giving up at the times I really want to. You know, to push past a bad day or to push past I don't understand this one thing To not be like I don't get this, i'm done. You know, to give myself a chance to get it. You know to give myself a chance to be good at something. You know not when something gets difficult and just like it's too hard And just quit, it's pushing myself past, not to pass A limit, not pass you know my absolute limit where I'm not past the burnout, but pushing myself a little bit past comfortable to be able to achieve a goal or All right hold up Hold up, come here.

Speaker 2: 40:02

Hey Now here we go Let me go. Oh, my goodness, Love it, love it. But yeah, just to push past comfortable a little bit, not give up, but somewhere, like I said, that's still that fine line where I'm not going to push myself into, you know, an aneurysm, but I'm not going to give up. I'm not going to give up because I stub my toe.

Speaker 1: 40:31

Yeah, and that's one of those things, right. So when I think of perseverance, i think about picking yourself up, being willing to fall down over and over again. Now, yes, there's going to get to a point where it becomes too much. There's going to it's going to get to a point where maybe eventually you realize it's just not possible, like there are. there are going to be obstacles in our life. There are going to be things that happen that are just absolutely impossible to overcome. And I don't I don't say that lightly, because I am one of those people, of course, as you know that says you can push past anything with help, with, by yourself, as long as you have the willpower to do it. But there are just certain concepts, certain things, certain areas of life. For instance, i could never be a nurse or doctor, and it has nothing to do with not being able to learn it. It's because, from the time my wife got an epidural, i can't handle the sight of blood, just that Why, i don't know, it's a good thing, but it is what it is.

Speaker 2: 41:33

So you have to know your limit. I don't have limitations, but not limitations. What's the word? I'm looking for Your parameters, something like limitations, Because that doesn't.

Speaker 1: 41:43

You have to know your barriers, thank you, and I mean true barriers, not the glass ceiling, because that glass ceiling is garbage and that is something you put on yourself.

Speaker 1: 41:54

I'm talking barriers like brick wall with freaking defenses and everything else Yeah, that type of shit. So I could never do something like that. But there are things in life that you self impose barriers And that is where perseverance comes in, because that is when you can sit there. You fell down, maybe you didn't pass the test. Guess what? I'm going to get my ass back up, i'm going to learn it and I'm going to go back.

Speaker 2: 42:23

And I'm definitely going to pass it that time. Yeah, that's perseverance.

Speaker 1: 42:28

Maybe you didn't get a job, or 100 jobs or 1,000 jobs. But here's the thing If it means enough to you and if you really believe in yourself and you really believe, I ain't going to say you believe in yourself because, let's be honest, if there are about 100, 200, 300 failed jobs, job interviews or whatever the case may be, you may be lacking that belief in yourself, But it doesn't mean you can't do it. You persevere, you overcome and you keep going at it, Because that field itself, that knowledge you have, is important. So you have to be able to overcome.

Speaker 2: 43:01

I applied for and within six months, I want to say I put out about 250 job applications before I got my job. So it got real depressing there. For a minute It was like, OK, this is never going to happen. Never is a very long time, And it was definitely not ever going to happen if I just quit. So that was kind of what kept me going, is if I stopped doing this altogether and I got nothing out of it as just something else that I'm going to have to tell myself, well, you didn't do this, You didn't complete this, And then I'd be mad at myself because it's something I know I can do. I just didn't keep at it.

Speaker 1: 43:39

And that's one of the things. So me and Amanda talked yesterday. One of the things we talked about was just the obstacles we face, the things we go through and the way we deal with situations, the way we deal with people. And for me, the way I look at all these things is no matter what happens in life, you can overcome it, you can deal with it. You just have to have the right mindset. Now, for some it's faith and spirituality, for some it's just belief in self. For some there's all these other different reasons people can do it.

Speaker 1: 44:25

Some people just give up on themselves because they don't have the support system behind them to say they can actually handle it They can do that, you can overcome that, and I'll be the first one to tell you Amanda, who I've been talking to for a while because she's good people, and I'm getting her into cybersecurity past her first week of Google, you know, cybersecurity boot camp. Hurrah, amanda, love you girl.

Speaker 2: 44:53

So that's a huge deal because that first week if you can get through that first. some people get scared off in the first week and they're like I cannot do this, so don't poo poo the first week.

Speaker 1: 45:04

Well, there's always, there's also a stipulation between me and her of her getting through that And it's a bet Well, not really a bet, but it is. It's not me and her going on where I was like look, you do this, i got you, but if she quits, say no more. You out girl, you lost, and it's nothing serious, it's just a situation. I know some of the situations she's in. I'm just like I got you, I'll take care of you.

Speaker 2: 45:40

Could have bought her a jumbo jet. That's not my business, that's y'all.

Speaker 1: 45:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:44

Doesn't matter what it is, she's taken care of.

Speaker 1: 45:47

As long as she keeps at it, she quits doing it.

Speaker 2: 45:49

That's when And that's it.

Speaker 1: 45:51

We got issues. That seems I do have a question here from Jax, and I'm going to let you handle this one Can you have perseverance without being resilient? Or are they the same, or do they work synergistically together?

Speaker 2: 46:06

Y'all going to make me think today.

Speaker 1: 46:08

Oh, you've got to think And I'm going to let you think because you're going solo.

Speaker 2: 46:11

Oh yeah, ok, Nothing but my face in the screen. Can you have perseverance without being resilient? I'm going to answer this in parts. You can, i think, but that's when you start running into possible burnout If you keep at something and you keep at something and you keep at something but you're just wearing yourself down, you're not building yourself back up or you're not Teflon tough on the outside. That's not going to be good. I don't think they're the same. I don't know how to explain. They're not one.

Speaker 2: 46:45

One is to me more of an action than the other one. It's kind of more of a state of being. Ideally ideal situation when you get most success is when you persevere and you're resilient. Hope that made sense. Like I said, if I've got a really soft head, this is a very resilient example. If I've got a really soft head and I want to keep beating my head into a wall, that's not going to end well. As if I have a really thick head and I'm doing this, ok yeah, i'm persevering at it, but my head's not resilient, so I'm going to wind up with a big dent in my forehead. So was that not a perfect example? Was that not just that big an example?

Speaker 1: 47:29

I like it.

Speaker 2: 47:31

But that's my opinion, that's my thought.

Speaker 1: 47:34

So the way I see it is like this, and Jax is going to completely understand where I come from, because it's from a military background Where that class comes from. Resiliency and perseverance are two completely different things. They can work together, but idealistically they're different. You see, perseverance is going to give you that ability to keep going. Resilience is going to give you the ability to continuously pick yourself up in the right head space So you could be persevered and you can keep going. But eventually it's going to wear on you.

Speaker 1: 48:07

If you're not resilient, if you're not able to reevaluate, if you're not able to meditate, if you're not able to take yourself out of this situation, take the time to rebuild, recharge, regain yourself. Then I don't care how much you persevere, eventually you're just going to give up. You're not going to keep doing it because you're not resilient enough to deal with the failure. Two completely different things. Perseverance allows you to keep going, but eventually you're going to get beat down. Resilience allows you to build yourself back up every single time you fall. Are they synergistic? I would say yes. I think you need both. You need resilience and perseverance.

Speaker 2: 48:48

I agree.

Speaker 1: 48:51

Oh man, sometimes you need to reset to keep going. And yes, jacks did say love it. Yes, it makes sense. This is to you.

Speaker 2: 49:00

I believe you need to work together. When I started going off into that soft head analogy, I was like, oh Lord, here I go, All right.

Speaker 1: 49:11

Oh man. But yeah, perseverance is one of those things that I think a lot of people lack. Well, no, let me correct that. It's the resilience they lack Because, after so much failure, they feel like they just can't do it, and it's because they have not practiced anything to truly make them resilient. They've not looked at themselves, they've not reevaluated their situation, they've not tried to change the way they do things, they've not set goals, they've not really done things properly.

Speaker 1: 49:41

I think that the resiliency factor, and especially how we're trained in the army and in the military in general, i believe has all the same courses. I think that resiliency factor is what's missing. You could persevere, you can continue to push and push and push every time you get knocked down, but I equate it to insanity When you try the same thing over and over and over again and you know it's not going to work. That's the definition of insanity You're not changing anything, you're just going to completely. You know you're just going to do the same thing and not change anything, whereas resiliency allows you to reevaluate yourself and reevaluate the situation and really figure out how to change things. So I think resiliency is a big part of it, but anyways, because I think, oh, wait, hold on. I was about to say I brought out a question.

Speaker 2: 50:36

Yeah, no, I saw a good one in there.

Speaker 1: 50:39

Ben Franklin says persistence conquers all things, but sometimes it's not worth the effort. Have you ever conquered through persistence, only to realize it was not worth the cost? slash benefits.

Speaker 2: 50:55

I'm not inviting y'all next time Making me use my brain and mind.

Speaker 1: 51:04

So the reality of it is has there ever been anything you've done in your life that took you a while to do, took a lot of failure? maybe not a lot, but you've failed, you've failed whatever. You got back up, kept winning, and then you realized this shit sucks. I should have done it in the first place.

Speaker 2: 51:20

Not really. I mean, i'm not going to say there's been things that I thought was going to be sunshine and lollipops and it wasn't as much sunshine or as many lollipops as I thought, but just for me, just the act of just the process of sticking with something and knowing that I can do it brought a lot of value to it for me. I mean, i can't think of anything that I've done that was really difficult and I got it in and was like, well, this is just stupid. Nothing off the top of my head. I'll keep thinking on that one, but I can't really think of something. That's just been like super, duper hard And then I finally got, you know, you got an end game and I was like this was pointless.

Speaker 1: 52:09

My experience Having five boys.

Speaker 2: 52:14

No, no, not allowed to make all that.

Speaker 1: 52:23

Try for a girl. got five boys. That's the problem. My wife said, yeah, marriage I got some rough, rough room.

Speaker 1: 52:44

This is one of those things. So here's the thing And this is something you know, you know about me. Everybody here should know about me by now. It's yes, i will take something that should be a serious topic burnout, perseverance, you name it How I did it today on my LinkedIn post when I gave my weekend safety brief. You know, i will take a serious topic and make light of things solely because one I'm a veteran and that's how we get through situations. Dark humor is our shit. That's that's how we survive all the bullshit to, because I honestly do think it's hilarious. So you can give me a deep topic and I'm still going to make light of the situation. Like me, love me, hate me, i don't give a damn. That's just the way I am. Yeah, marriage is definitely one of those things you got to overcome.

Speaker 2: 53:37

I can't say that Well, I'm not married anymore, So I don't really you know, but I that.

Speaker 1: 53:46

I'm not married. My wife look at it and we ask each other every day Why did I marry you? I don't fucking know, wow.

Speaker 2: 53:56

But there's all the jokes, but those things.

Speaker 1: 53:59

You look at each other and you go there's a grain of truth in it.

Speaker 2: 54:02

You're weird. Why did?

Speaker 1: 54:03

I marry you. I don't fucking know, why did you know?

Speaker 2: 54:08

It's a great idea at the time. I'm not sure what happened. It's all love.

Speaker 1: 54:14

It is. If you can talk shit on each other, do you really love?

Speaker 1: 54:18

you, you're with the wrong person. Let's see Where is it Established? dominance Angie knows what it's all about. So you don't know. The weekend safety brief is this Do not add to the population, Do not subtract from the population, Do not end up in the hospital, newspaper or jail. If you do end up in jail, establish dominance quickly. And I'm going to add another line to that If you cannot establish dominance, please go up to the biggest person in your cell, grab their pocket and you are now their bitch. They will take care of you. So you don't know the difference. It's all over the place.

Speaker 2: 54:57

Now We can safely brief. We added the new line We're good to go. That's a tactic.

Speaker 1: 55:05

Definitely a tactic. Look, this is all in fun. Here's the thing. It's very funny.

Speaker 1: 55:15

We're at almost the top of the hour, which of course means you know you're going to be given your words of wisdom, your little lesson but of advice, your information to the community, information to the community. Before we do that, I wanna say one thing. Those who know me know I'm a veteran. Those who've been watching for a while knows I've been around for a little while. So please do me a favor do not go up to any veteran, any active duty service member, and tell them happy Memorial Day and thank you for your service.

Speaker 1: 55:40

That is not what it's about. It is about those who have fallen, Those who did not make it home, those who maybe made it home but are no longer with us because of other reasons. So, for this Memorial Day weekend and because of the issues at hand, talk to any of your veteran brothers and sisters that you know, check in on them, make sure they're okay. I got lucky. I have not lost anyone overseas, but there is a lot of people out there that have. So before you say happy Memorial Day, please make sure mentally they're okay and they're not dealing with the loss of those that came before and dealing with survivor's guilt. So that is my spiel on Memorial Day weekend. It is for those we lost, not those that are here. Other than that, please give us some words of burnout, perseverance and any other advice. You know the drill for those trying to enter the field and those that may already be in.

Speaker 2: 56:38

Okay, don't give up. I know that sounds very cookie cutter. And when you get to the point where you just you don't think you can like, you don't know how to ask questions, don't let that stop you. But listen to yourself, listen to your body, listen to your mind, your mental health, and pay attention to that. Don't feel like you have to grind yourself down to a paste to be successful in this field. You know like, if everybody takes breaks from you know way up here to somebody who started last month you know you have to take care of yourself. You have to put mask on your own face first or you're not gonna be any good to yourself, your company, anybody else. Know yourself first and know that you can do this. Whatever this is, you fill in the blank with your this. Whatever this is, this might be something else. This be good to yourself.

Speaker 1: 57:46

Definitely, Definitely, And that's one of the things I wanna add on to you know, with burnout and perseverance there's two very different things is when you persevere too much, you do eventually burn out, especially if you don't have resilience, especially if you're not ever taking time out for yourself.

Speaker 2: 58:02

You wanna know how to prevent burnout.

Speaker 1: 58:04

I'm gonna tell you right now cut yourself off from technology. Every week At a certain point in time in the week, cut the technology out, live your life, get out in nature. I understand it's hard for people. You don't want your feet to touch grass. I got you homie. I know I hate when my feet touch mud, grass, dirt, whatever, i don't know. It's a problem with me.

Speaker 1: 58:27

That's so nice though I get it, but get outside. I don't care if you wear shoes. Get outside grounds yourself, be there, be in nature, be by the fire, be in the woods. Just be on your porch. I don't care. Get away from it all and leave your phone inside because we have to get away. If you don't get away from the technology especially for those of us in cybersecurity it is never gonna happen. You are never going to truly prevent burnout because you're constantly going to be attached. Detach yourself from cybersecurity, detach yourself from technology. That is the only way. Perseverance. Guess what? Give me a call, send me a message. I don't give a damn. I will help you persevere. We will figure it out and you will make it. But I'm also gonna tell you to take breaks.

Speaker 2: 59:17

Can I jump in and say one quick thing? that really is not apropos, but I just realized that a lot of people are gonna be mad if I don't mention it.

Speaker 1: 59:24

Do it.

Speaker 2: 59:26

Nobody said anything about my hair. That's what I mean. They kept bobbing.

Speaker 1: 59:30

You know I love your purple hair.

Speaker 2: 59:31

Purple hair. And I got the purple hair and now nobody said anything.

Speaker 1: 59:35

Hey, you sent me the pictures. I didn't think I needed to. I knew you had the purple hair.

Speaker 2: 59:40

I love the purple hair. It'll be like this for a little while.

Speaker 1: 59:44

I love the purple hair. That's my shit. I told you to bring it back and you brought it back.

Speaker 2: 59:48

And I brought it back because you said it.

Speaker 1: 59:54

Amanda said it's purple.

Speaker 2: 59:55

It's very purple.

Speaker 1: 59:57

I love it, yes, i love it. So, anyways, look, hey, this has been an amazing episode of Security. Happier, as always. Security wow, holy shit, that I butchered at Security happy hour. And, as always, i am here for all of you And I will be here every week. I've not missed very many weeks. I may change the day, but I don't miss a week, so I'll always be here. You can always reach out to me on any of my social media. If you want to support the show, support any of my content to include walk with me to the podcast, this show or any of the other videos I do. Please check the description down below. Guess what? I don't care what platform you're on, it is fucking there. You can find it and you can support this show. Otherwise, okay, y'all have a great weekend. Take care of yourselves. Reach out to some family members. I bet you they all love you and they're missing you. Take care and I'll catch you all next week. 而已大的まみ.