Maintaining Mental Health in Cybersecurity: A Conversation with Tim Foot

Has a friend ever nudged you to try something completely new to you? Well, that’s exactly what happened to our guest today, Tim Foot. Once a massage therapist, a suggestion from his IT friend led him on a fascinating journey into the world of cybersecurity. Join us as we follow Tim's extraordinary career shift and how his potent intellect and insatiable curiosity helped him find his footing in the complex realm of cybersecurity. Listen as he recounts his numerous accomplishments, including his intriguing experience as a SOC analyst and his ventures into contract work with vulnerability assessments.

What if you could transform your career using your soft skills? That’s precisely what Tim did. Our conversation ventures into the trials and tribulations of transitioning into a cybersecurity career, emphasizing the importance of asking questions and grabbing new opportunities with both hands. Tim shared his ingenious strategy of harnessing his soft skills while leaning into the blue team. For those considering a purple team role, Tim’s insights prove to be nothing short of inspiring.

Towards the end of our talk, we take a moment to discuss something often underestimated - the mental health aspect of cybersecurity professionals. Despite the thrill of the field, establishing work-life boundaries and time off are critical to maintaining mental health. Hear Tim's thoughts on how to balance work and life, and the crucial need for networking within this ever-evolving industry. Whether you're an industry veteran or a green newbie, this episode is packed with practical advice and profound understanding of the cybersecurity landscape. So, tune in and get ready for an intellectual roller coaster ride with our guest, Tim Foot.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome back to another amazing episode of Security Happy Hour. I am your host, as always, the Cyber Warrior, and we are back in the studio here at Cyber Warrior Studios after an amazing episode we just had at New Jersey Cyber Fire Size. So we're here to kick it off. We're here to bring it to you once again on another amazing Friday episode on Freya's Day of Security Happy Hour. So if you stand by for just 10 seconds, we'll be right back and we're back, and if we listen real close, there it is the official kickoff Security Happy Hour for the evening. And with me my guest at this time, tim Foot. Tim, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:54

Good brother, how are you?

Speaker 1: 0:56

You know I can't complain. It's been a long week. This is episode two of the week, so it's a little. It's a little crazy. All right, I've been running around all week doing a ton of things, doing a bunch of content. So you know, it is what it is.

Speaker 2: 1:09

I wish I had a drink to join you.

Speaker 1: 1:11

I'm all happy about that because I'm going to get a break on Sunday. Maybe, hopefully. No wait, I'm going to be at San Caccio, so probably not. I don't know what's going to go on this weekend, but we'll play it by ear. Spectra's in bed, maybe. Yeah, I might get that, I might.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Well, we said it live, so we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1: 1:33

So yeah, so anyways, Tim, it's good to have you here. I mean, we connected a little while back. You showed some interest and said you wanted to jump on and you know me and you talked about it a little bit. But, like I said, this show is free form, we just have a conversation, and so for me, the biggest thing and one of the biggest questions I always ask is kind of what brought you into cybersecurity and this kind of realm of you know, influence and racking your brain and burnout?

Speaker 2: 2:01

Yeah, that's a lot. Well, I mean, again, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate that. And so I guess I'm a bit of a natural, like I'm a lifelong learner, so I'm always learning new stuff. So I've done a good number of things in my I'll call it a short lifetime, but I'm just naturally inquisitive and everything else. And so I have a really good friend who is in in IT and has been not sure exactly what he does. I know he's really smart and does a lot of stuff in IT Anyway. So he just actually pre COVID and all that stuff, he kind of him and I were having conversations and I was looking for some change.

Speaker 2: 2:47

I was doing massage therapy at the time and I wanted something, you know, maybe a little less physical, you know, in terms of on my body, you know aging and everything else, thinking. You know, at some point you know I need to kind of make maybe a transition. And he brought up you know that, you know that cybersecurity was kind of an interesting avenue to look at and I started poking my nose around, started doing a lot of study and I'd always been into like a bit of IT, kind of like the go to guy in my small circle, I guess, of friends, family and friends for helping out and that kind of thing and whatever. So I was always interested in it but never looked at anything specific and so it intrigued me. You know, obviously, anything with security. It was kind of like, yeah, that sounds kind of interesting. Obviously has something to do with, you know, investigating and looking into you know whatever.

Speaker 2: 3:39

And I said, you know, I'll look into that a little deeper, because it was kind of it was a relatively new term to me, even though you know I, you know I knew a lot of the other stuff. But it was kind of like, okay, well, that's, that's an interesting avenue to look at. So I just kind of started digging my nose in, you know, to whatever I could get my hands on in terms of learning and then basically went and did the, the CompTIA Security Plus. Basically everything I did was like online courses, just kind of did it on my own time, my own initiative kind of thing. So never too late to learn new stuff. That's kind of my my go-to thing, right.

Speaker 1: 4:15

So well, and you're not wrong about that. There's a lot of people that are, you know, transitioning into cybersecurity later on in their lives and that could be for a multitude of reasons. You know, like you said, when you're once your body starts to go, once you know doing anything manual, being on your feet all the time, things of that nature once it takes hold, it makes it very difficult to do a lot of other things. And being able to be able to still work and provide for your family or your life or yourself or whatever you're doing, and maintain a full-time job, cybersecurity and IT is a lucrative career. More so cybersecurity, just because a lot of it can be done remote, whereas there are certain IT jobs that still require in-person or in the office type of workflow. I know help desk just because of the way things are, and having to go to some physical locations requires some office time on occasion.

Speaker 1: 5:10

So being here in cybersecurity is huge. What would you say, beyond the lifelong learning? Because let's be honest, that if you're not a lifelong learner, that it's going to be very difficult for you to succeed in cybersecurity. What would you say? Your biggest accomplishment has been so far trying to. You know, if I'm not mistaken, you're either a SOC analyst now, or that's a previous role, or you're kind of in that spirit.

Speaker 2: 5:40

Yeah, I've kind of done a bit of the SOC analyst role and I've done some contract work as well for some local companies with vulnerability assessments and those kind of things as well. But yeah, I guess it's really making that, you know, just kind of jumping both feet in, you know, to basically immerse myself in the world of making those connections in the cybersecurity sector with you know, whether it be on LinkedIn or through other outlets, right and getting involved in things like the B-sides, conferences and stuff and things that we have. It's making that. I think you know that basically taking that leap of faith, I guess, if you will, to just kind of go all in and, like I said, right now, that's where I am right now, looking at the SOC analyst role and, like I said, mostly doing contract stuff right now and then hoping to go further with that.

Speaker 1: 6:46

Yeah, definitely, and that's one of those things right. So I look at cybersecurity you can actually accomplish without taking the full head first dive, right, you can still work a full-time job and get into it, but it takes time and it takes longer. Anything in life is going to take work and it's just a matter of how you want to divvy that work out and your time and things of that nature. And so I look at it like business. You can start a business technically while still working a full-time job, but there's going to be things that you miss out on or things that are going to take more time to do because you can't go head first in.

Speaker 1: 7:22

And I know myself as someone you know, with a wife and kids, I can't quit my job to go do something else. Like I still have to have that income because I got bills to pay, whereas others may have secondary income that allows them to. Okay, I can quit my job, go full-on into this because I'm still able to provide. I mean, I may have to limit myself, let's be honest, but I can still provide and then go from there. So it's always good to see when people are able to do that. I just know that's a struggle for a lot of people because if you don't have that income coming in it makes it hard to like focus on what you got going forward. But we have two questions here. The first one is definitely way off topic, but that's my girl for you. Are you a base player?

Speaker 2: 8:09

I kind of dabble with base. I'm actually mostly a singer and guitar player. That's kind of my, that's my go-to. If there was a way to make money in this world being a musician, I'd love to do that.

Speaker 1: 8:22

But I mean, you can, it's just you can it's, it's it's not as easy as it looks. Independent artists out there to do it, and they do it well, they've become millionaires. Yeah, it's true. But we have another question. This one's from my girl, misha what was your first certification you earned when you switched careers? And I know you said it a little bit earlier Blu.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yeah, it was, it was the CompTIA Security Plus. That was my, that was the one when I, when I went again, I you know I do a lot of researching. So my research was, you know, for the first, to kind of, you know, get in there, get your feet wet. That seemed like a very generally accepted you know throughout the industry, as far as an industry standard, that the CompTIA Security Plus seemed to have a good reputation from everything that I'd read and everything, and you know, it covered a lot of, you know, a lot of bases for me. Plus, I mean, like like all my other you know, study was like you know, like Professor Messer and different things like that, that I'd I'd kind of, you know again, a bit of a visual learner to a certain degree. So I watched a lot of videos, you know, did a lot of practice labs and that kind of thing. But yeah, it was, comptia Security Plus was the first one for me.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Yeah, and that was, honestly, that was my first cybersecurity certification myself. No, I got mine back in 08. So it's been a little while and mine is still lifetime. I have not converted it over to the continuing education, so my shit still works, but I've gotten more since then. But yeah, that was the first cybersecurity one I had with me. Oh, that's right. All right, so, and we're going to go up or else it'll cut you off. It is Misha's 40th birthday today, one of my warriors, one of my family members. I love you, misha. So here's to you. Happy birthday, skoll, and have an amazing day. I hope you've had an amazing day.

Speaker 2: 10:14

I wish I had a drink in front of me. I don't even know what happened. I have Gatorade, is that? How it works, that'll work Get around all. Definitely I should have.

Speaker 1: 10:24

But but yeah, it's so it's everybody here in the chat Happy birthday Bono. Thank you, I'm going to go to the next one. Uh, uh, misha Adrian. Uh, I know. Andrea's in here, nice, um, jack's here, there's quite a few. Uh, william Bailey, areej, I don't know, that's what that one's on Twitch man. There's always some weird twitching.

Speaker 2: 10:47

We got seventeen people watching, so as of right now, so beyond that all seventeen.

Speaker 1: 10:52

good to have you all here, James. Thanks for joining Um, but yeah, so ask me who is just getting into the?

Speaker 1: 11:01

industry and a sock analyst probably has some answers for you that may help you out going forward in in your career as well. Um, but yeah, otherwise, you know, being in this industry has its challenges. It has. It has its ups and downs, right, it's ebb and flow and of things that are really easy, things that are really hard, and it's different for everybody. What would you say is has been the industry and the field and things of that nature, especially with your transition from massage therapy into cybersecurity.

Speaker 2: 11:36

Uh, I think for me, the the one thing I've always found, I guess, is the easy thing, is dealing with people, because, regardless of whether you know, you can get crazy technical on on the one hand with with a lot of the IT space and whatever, but you know the the skills that it takes to actually be able to get either from whatever avenue of life they're come from.

Speaker 2: 11:59

I mean, I've dealt with people from you know, from young, young people to people who are in high levels of government and whatever. So I kind of find that part uh easy, uh in the sense of like dealing like you know, like talking to you, talking to new people, like that's not uh, I mean, I mean, again, I've performed in front of you know hundreds of people, so it's not like getting in front of people and talking to people and and talking to people and it's a difficult thing. I mean I don't mind asking questions. I don't mind asking questions that might sound stupid, you know, because there's no stupid questions and, um, you know, really that's that's what it takes and that's kind of always where I've been comfortable in that space you know, poking, prodding, getting to know people, asking people questions, you know, and again, just trying to take back from that what I can to you know.

Speaker 1: 12:55

I'm not going to be asking questions? Yeah, definitely. And you know, I look at it and a lot of people will say you know, asking questions there's, there's no such thing as a stupid question, and it's true, there really isn't, depending on who you talk to. Because and I don't mean by the person you're asking question, I mean the person you're asking it to because there are a lot of people out there that if you ask them certain questions, we'll look down upon you and say things. So it makes it hard, and I've noticed this through my time in the military. Through my time in the military, I've been asking myself where people were afraid to ask questions because they didn't want to look stupid. Um, and it is because of you know, there are certain questions that will provide a stigma of oh well, they don't know anything, why are they here? They're idiots. They shouldn't be doing this Da da, da, da da.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Look, I gotta be honest. When I was going for my master's degree for cybersecurity, which I never finished Um, I literally taught the class the intro to cyber class out at the fire pit, and the questions I heard were things that you might be asking stupid questions. It was it's an intro class. I'm gonna answer these. I will help you with what is firewall. I will help you with what the protection system do and things of that nature. Um, and, and it's because maybe you just need to hear it a different way. Maybe someone told you what you know HTTPS is, but you didn't understand it. From that perspective, you may need a different one. So asking the question again, even after you've been certified in certain areas it's not a bad thing, Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Are you? Looking to stay on the blue team side, or are you looking at the red team? Or are you looking at GRC, kind of what, what, what do you see your future path?

Speaker 2: 14:37

I, I like the blue team in, you know, and I guess you know, probably initially too, I, you know, I, maybe I find the blue team to be a little less intimidating in terms of you know, I, I guess I would say I would say I would do pen testing or something like that on.

Speaker 2: 14:58

You know, I would find that to me, would require me to maybe have a little bit more time with my technical skills, um and so, uh, initially I did look at some things, even in in the, like, the social social engineering area, know where, like I said, I, using kind of the soft skills that I already had, and I would possibly like to end up, if there's a way to find a niche in there, uh, where I can, you know, where I can help in that area, because I mean, as we all know, there's. You know, whatever happens, whether it's AI or all the crazy stuff that's happening, people will always be, you know, a factor in, in security, and so, for me, being able to deal with people, being comfortable with dealing with you know my niche somewhere there within that space. But you know, for now, definitely with the, with the blue team for now, but, yeah, all the others too.

Speaker 1: 16:00

So, so we got? We got two things here, uh, the first is from my buddy, william. Um, I know he goes by the land shark on Twitch. I don't know he's on boat, so, hey, I love him for it. Be on every platform, I don't care. Yeah, are you looking to going?

Speaker 2: 16:19

into more of a purple team or something like that. I'm looking to a certain degree. I, like I said, I think there are some areas that I, uh, I definitely need to work on, uh, to kind of make that, you know, transition more towards, you know, purple and you know, and again, you know, it's like anything right If, if the doors open and if the opportunities present themselves, then you know, I'm all for, you know, taking opportunities right and uh, I think that's a big by chance. So, you know, I kind, of like you know, if something comes up that you know says, hey, you know, I mean, this looks like that would be. You know, where I feel like I'm transitioning to or where I'm I'm feeling more comfortable to at the time, uh, I would definitely be open to that for sure.

Speaker 1: 17:07

Yeah, and I think that's a big thing and I got another comment down here from Jack Um pen testing done right as purple within the reporting and that that's, that's when you get into it and that's because you have to have the ability to do that. You know things like that. So, yeah, um, my, my take away from that is you should always, if you're blue team or red team, you should always understand the opposite side and even look at a high level, or or a basic foundational level, of what you should see from both aspects.

Speaker 1: 17:35

And the reason for that is is you can't know how to break into a system if you don't know the security architecture behind it. That's defending the system. Yeah, so if you've never used the architecture, if you've never used the EDR or a SIM tool or something like that, and makes it very difficult. And then from the opposite spectrum, you can't do blue team if you've never broken into anything and know what logs it'll generate or anything like that. So it becomes a interesting dynamic if you're not cutting both.

Speaker 2: 18:07

Yeah Well, that's the thing. I'm definitely studying all of them. You know I'm as much as I can at that level where I am right now, you know, just kind of, you know, feeling, you know more comfortable at this point with, you know with the blue team, but, like I said, certainly open to and very interested and always excited to learn, you know, new stuff and I'm always trying to challenge myself to, you know, to increase my knowledge right Definitely, and that's something we should always be doing right.

Speaker 1: 18:38

Yeah, never, never give up the moment you quit trying to learn and you know, definitely, really, yeah, so so we got another question here on Twitch, or read XO. I guess that's how you say it. I could be wrong. Thank you all for this space. I have a question about what's responsibility and certificates for a junior sock engineer. I don't know if those exist, but if they do, I don't know what, what, what?

Speaker 2: 19:09

do you say? I would say, I guess, like an example, um, I mean, like I said, I started studying things, even, like you know, doing the network plus and understanding networks and TCP, ip and but as far as certificates, yeah, I don't know if there's one specifically for, but I guess, again, the entry level for me in terms of security was, you know, the CompTIA security plus, and there are others out there. I believe I Saka has um, can't remember the name of it now, but I don't know if it's uh, it's. I don't think it's sock specific, but again, it's uh, I don't know if there are like as far as sock specific certifications.

Speaker 1: 19:53

No, um, while there's there is security. Blue dot team yeah, they have a blue team, level one, level two and level two out.

Speaker 2: 20:00

I don't know. I think that's fairly new.

Speaker 1: 20:02

Yeah, fairly new. Yeah, it's fairly new. I don't know if they've come out with all of them yet, um, but I do know I was on the advisory board for level one. I know he was working on level two and he's a great engineer, but it's blue team, yeah. So it could kind of at least lend to that aspect of things. Um, as far certifications go, but as far as anything other than that, nothing that an individual can afford comes to mind. Most of what I know may kind of lend to.

Speaker 1: 20:33

It would be more sands, which requires corporate payment, unless you just happen to have 15 grand lying around that can be a good job Um but as far as responsibility from a junior sock engineer, that's more my, my experience as a blue team engineer and and Tim you know, correct me if you know any different my experience as a sock engineer would be able to do the TLC and really maintenance of sim. You're not necessarily doing the implementation of the TLC Uh, you, you're, you're not going to do the hard parts of it, but they'll want you to understand kind of the in and outs and the taking care of it and developing roles and alerts and you know that nature.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Would you, would you assume anything different?

Speaker 2: 21:28

That's pretty much where I would be looking at things like that. That you know, yeah, like you say you're, you're as far as in the chain. I guess that's where you know. That's where you would be in terms of that. Yeah, that's where I would be in terms of, I guess, not technically advanced or whatever, but you know more. In that you know alert level, I guess you're kind of moving up the the rank, you know, in terms of who you're reporting to and that kind of thing and whatever.

Speaker 1: 21:56

So yeah, yeah, and and and again, it's. It's one of those things. The engineer side usually is more technical, in the back end side of things, yeah, whereas when you're looking at the analyst side you know you're looking like being able to delve into even threat intel a little bit and threat hunting is more on the analyst side. Engineer side is definitely more software oriented. What are what are you implementing? How are you fixing it? How are you troubleshooting it All? Of these different things.

Speaker 1: 22:26

So, yeah, that's kind of how I look at the differences between the two. Sometimes, though, your engineers make good level three and you're trying to become an engineer. Because of how in depth you get with the software, you understand more about the threat hunting side, because normally you'll not always there's ways around it, but a lot of times you'll see people go from analysts to engineer versus straight into engineering. Yeah, yeah, for sure, um man, a lot of talking going on.

Speaker 2: 23:02

I think we're talking about feet now.

Speaker 1: 23:04

I think you're something, well, because kind of like I don't know if you saw that I think he's laughing about. Yeah, Um uh, a sock analyst is someone who you know investigates.

Speaker 2: 23:15

Analyzes socks, you know so you have holy socks maybe yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:23

So I think that's interesting and and so, going from that, if I'm going to look more in the blue team and let's say you, you continue your focus on moving up the ranks in the blue team side of things right now, if you were to look at this, what have you? Would you look to consider more about threat hunting and threat intel and the the research side of things? Would that intrigue you more? Um, just giving your mindset of of where you're at right now, knowing it could change in the future, but you know, if we were to look at it right now, would you consider that more of a pathway of someone in the blue team, really in depth in the weeds of the analysts and in research side of things.

Speaker 2: 24:07

You know, just because that's, I think, when you're looking through stuff, you know as as a sock analyst you're, you're seeing all this stuff and you're actually kind of want to maybe delve a little deeper into what's actually going on, and so I think that's probably a bit progression. Or at least where your mind wanders right, when you're looking at this stuff, you're like, okay, where did that all come from? How'd that originate? What's the? You know?

Speaker 2: 24:32

And so it's, you know, looking at logs, you know it's kind of one thing, but then to kind of say, okay, how'd that all happen, and where did it come from, and where are we going, you know, with it, right, and so yeah, I think that the whole threat hunting and you know kind of going through that is probably a bit of a natural progression. For I guess if you're inquisitive at all, you know I mean you're constantly thinking like what's going on here, why are these people doing what they're doing? How do I figure out? So that you know, so I can, you know, recognize it for the next time or be better able to deal with it the next time or whatever. So you know, definitely a bit of a natural, I think, progression when you're looking at that stuff all the time, right.

Speaker 1: 25:15

Yeah, definitely, I think between that and even cyber panda here you know. Incident response.

Speaker 1: 25:21

Incident response is another good area to get into, especially if you become very adept at threat hunting and being an analyst and you know understanding where attack vectors are coming from, how they are propagating through your network, what logs they're generating, what changes they're making. The IR side of thing becomes very lucrative in just knowledge alone, not even necessarily money, I mean. Granted, yes, the money's there, but just the knowledge of you know. Now you're getting to see more IOCs, you're getting to see what the bigger players are doing when they're breaching networks.

Speaker 1: 25:58

So I think IR is another huge blue team perspective that people take for granted and don't really investigate or look to get into all the time.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Yeah, I think there's a lot of those areas that, like I said, and really it's kind of it's as broad as it is long. I guess, as they say, like you know, when you start looking into you know, I mean you can kind of go down that niche. You know rabbit hole, really right where there, you know it just gets, you know there's more and more, like I said, with IR and all that stuff that you're kind of you know. For me anyways, that's the way I found it. I found, as I started to study and learn more, all of a sudden something comes up.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Of course, we know there's all kinds of acronyms, so you hear something and you're like you look at that and you're like, geez, maybe I should like go down that path and maybe I should look at that. That sounds intriguing. But yeah, like rabbit hole, oh, I know, like it's strong, yeah, I know I'm just discovering at this age that it's actually strong in me as well that you're kind of like, oh my God, like every time you turn around there's something else you know and it is really and it's probably all in in all of cybersecurity. It seems like you know whether it's, you know, blue, red, purple, whatever. There's so many areas that you could basically make a career just out of that, you know. I mean, there's definitely so many areas to kind of branch out into.

Speaker 1: 27:22

Oh, yeah, for sure, and I think one of the biggest things is, you know, so, that people don't feel discouraged. Ocd, adhd, add, whatever you want to call it. I swear almost everybody I know in cybersecurity has something of the sort. Because, you know, like, for me, when it comes to reading tech books, I have like two or three bookshelves full over there, if not more. Yeah, and literally I'll go through, start reading them and then it's like, oh, this looks. Wait, it doesn't continue further than this. Hold up new book to buy. Go buy a new book, start reading that. Find this you know a different area.

Speaker 1: 28:00

I'm like I'll hold up new book to buy. There's only like one book out of my entire collection of learning books that I have finished. Only one.

Speaker 1: 28:09

Like even the Sands books, going through Sands instruction. Yes, I've technically finished them because I had to go through the week of training, but it wasn't like I sat there in red every word for word thing. It was like all right, let's get through the class. What are you gonna teach me today? All right, let's get to the hands-on stuff. Let's move along, let's keep going. But when it comes to me buying and self-teaching myself, I do. I see shiny, I hear squirrel like a terpie. I'm out, I'm like oh, I know.

Speaker 2: 28:39

How many tabs are open on your browser?

Speaker 1: 28:42

Oh, you only wanna know. You don't even wanna know. I even started because Chrome allows you to assign sections to them. Now I even have my assignments in there and I've learned that I can actually just reopen that same window even if I restart my computer. So I'm not as afraid to restart my computer anymore.

Speaker 2: 29:04

I think I shut down 14 windows before I came on this broadcast and there's still a pile there.

Speaker 1: 29:09

Just go into your history and you can reopen the same window. It works. Yeah, I know, but you won't worry. Okay, hold on, we got a good one here. What's the most difficult thing you have come across in your cyber career can be anything, and anyone can answer. So I mean you will both establish this. I'm gonna let you go first. And anyone in chat. Please chime in on Misha's question as well. We will throw it up on the screen.

Speaker 2: 29:37

I think and maybe this I mean it's to do with the cyber, with the career, I guess to a certain degree, because, as we know, networking is a huge thing. In especially getting started and that kind of thing. You gotta get your name out there. Your people have to know who you are. You can't just kind of jump on top of people and start asking all kinds of questions. You gotta build rapport and everything with people.

Speaker 2: 29:59

I've actually found and maybe this is just my life in general but putting posts up and trying to get some response out of them, I think has been the most difficult thing I've found to do.

Speaker 2: 30:12

And really the reason you do posts, especially with this, I mean, we're not talking about like doing, you know, instagram, facebook posts for, you know, to get pretty and popular. We're talking about you're trying to network, you're trying to connect with people and people who can, you can glean knowledge from them. Those kinds of things I've found trying to put up things that's going to get people interested or intrigued and to give information. You know what I mean in the sense of things that I would find useful but I could also be helpful to them as well and making those kind of you know kind of connections you know. Like I said, I've found it's not the talking to people. I can talk to people, I can connect with people, I can do that. But I've found, with the online things, trying to make those same things I would do with a handshake has, you know, has been difficult, right, like that's.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Yeah, yeah, I could definitely understand that, because that networking, that report that you normally get in person when you're sitting on and talking to someone.

Speaker 1: 31:16

This is why I love conferences, this is why like I do, stuff like that are so important to me. And again, I don't go to these things to go to the talks. Yes, I'm sure the talks were great. A my mind just doesn't work that way. I can't sit at a computer and pay attention for 20 minutes, let alone sit uncomfortably in some uncomfortable chairs and try to listen to someone for 20 minutes.

Speaker 1: 31:38

It just doesn't work for me. It's not who I am. I go to these places to network. Going to New Jersey Cyberfire Sides this past week was a great way to network. I met some amazing people, some of the Some of the best people I have met in person and probably years in this industry. I met there and I meet them at these smaller conferences. It's never. I've never been to a huge conference and I feel like it's a good thing because I feel like I'd get lost. So that in-person networking is huge. Cyber Panda honestly, burnout and depression. You need to take breaks. If you're a professional and also passionate in private, you get down that rabbit hole very deep. If you're at home, stop doing the cybers, make time for breaks, enjoy family and stuff, and he's not wrong.

Speaker 1: 32:32

That is one of the hardest things to do is to separate yourself. For example, when I was in the Army, I was in IT, sort of doing some jobs there, eventually got into the cyber, got all my certifications. As I was getting out, I was always on LinkedIn. I was doing more and more and I was trying to develop myself outside of the Army, knowing I was getting out, knowing I was getting retired, I still needed to have a career, so I was doing more. I got out, just tried to start a business. Then I started full-time work, started my channel, doing all this stuff.

Speaker 1: 33:09

I was burning the candle at both ends. I did not know how to say no to work. I did not know how to not answer a phone or notification or an email or chat or anything, and so I was very big on. I always have to be there. I have to be present. Work is important. Gotta be at work. Gotta be at work, gotta be at work. And it wasn't until probably about a year or two ago actually. No, I think we're about three years now.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Two years out of the Army is about what it took for me to finally be like nope step away, and so when I took time out from work, I took time out from my computer, I literally cut everything off, shut it all down and was like I'm done, I need my peace, I need my sanity, I need my mental health, and I think that's a big thing that we miss in this industry is being able to step away, because when your passion and your career are the same thing, as much as they say, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life yeah, that's great, as long as you're not doing it after work also.

Speaker 2: 34:12

Yes, yeah, and that's important. I mean that's like I said. I was that way with my other careers and with massage therapy. I mean that's the whole thing. I mean I'm teaching people right that you need to take care of yourself, you need to drink more water, you need to exercise regularly, you need to stretch, you need to do whatever. And here I was breaking up my own body and again having to take those breaks because it was just like you gotta take that time. And sometimes it's even just the mental getaway, getaway where you're just out of the space that you're normally in.

Speaker 2: 34:47

Completely Like I said and I told you earlier, I mean I was away for a couple of days with my dad earlier on this week and it was just a getaway. We had limited cell phone service limited, you know, I mean it was just kind of like. You know we're in a little little cubby, bunky place that, you know, had one electrical outlet and no actual light in the room. It was just lanterns and it was great, it was fantastic. You just you need those times for sure, and I found that even with studying Through this, you know, I mean you. You know, I mean I've done a lot of that, even since I've turned 40 of you know, kind of trying to reinvent myself and, you know, just having to take that time away. When I'm so driven and so focused to get done what I, you know, either to get that certification or or whatever it was, with you know going through massage school and all that, it was like you still got to take that time Away. That's it's super important for people to remember for sure.

Speaker 1: 35:40

Yeah, definitely, and I've noticed that a lot more. One of the things that I've started, you know, in the past two years, three years Actually, more specifically in the past I don't know eight months Maybe when did I come out and I'm gonna get named for this, but when did I come out with my walk with me podcast Skull? Someone's gonna tell me to drink, so I'll figure I might as well get it over with.

Speaker 1: 36:03

You know, that's one of the big things I've talked about is is your mental health and getting away and being able to really just take a look at yourself, because Sometimes and I had a conversation with someone today who finally hit their wall they hit their wits and they're like I can't afford to do this. I just I can't, I can't, it's just not in me mentally and and financially, and just everything finally ran its course and I was like look, man, we all have our own turn, we all have our own path, we all have all the. You know you have to do things at your own pace and if this is not for you, if it's gonna take too long for you to get a job in this industry that you're not willing to deal with it, I'd rather your mental health be okay, then you push yourself too far and hit your wits end and then no longer be able to talk.

Speaker 1: 36:55

Yeah, sure as long as we could have these conversations, then, fine, step away. You don't need to do this. This doesn't need to be a career for you, because it is a very difficult career right now to get into. There's a ton of layoffs. The recession literally hit a ton of companies are. You're seeing a huge amount of Fortune 500 and 1000 and all these other organizations laying people off in IT and cybersecurity. It's not easy to break into right now. It requires connections and a network and knowing people.

Speaker 1: 37:25

Yeah, if you're hot in that space and you haven't done that yet, then, yes, it's gonna take more time, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Yeah, and even even doing that, even trying to make those connections Like and even for myself personally, right, that it's a difficult thing, it's not. It's not like, it's not simple, it's not as simple as it may be, sometimes be made out to be, you know, and it really is it's it's you do have to dig in, you have to get in the trenches, you have to do the work that needs to be done, but and like I said, it's it's gonna be frustrating at times, but, like you said, yeah, your mental health is more important and you've, you do have to take those step back times, right, and and just say, okay, this is, you know, what's more important here at the end of the day, right?

Speaker 1: 38:07

Yeah, definitely and yeah and one hour when all while she's gonna put she's gonna kill me because I keep, you know, I keep changing how I pronounce her name.

Speaker 1: 38:16

She's gonna be on me, I'll never do it right all the time. Most difficult thing for her just remembering I can do this and not get discouraged when I run across something I don't understand. Hmm, reminds me of a friend of mine, mm-hmm, who is currently going through another course that is getting kind of fed up a time. But yeah, that's another one. How many times time have you run across stuff that you don't understand and it kind of makes you want to beat your head against the wall and sometimes just be like you know what I quit?

Speaker 2: 38:44

Pretty much every day. I but and I think that's a thing for somebody who's usually and like I said, not you know, I don't know if I'm super fantastic at anything, but usually I've found a lot of things for you know, whether it's you know, you know music or sports or whatever. I'm okay at a lot of them, you know, and, and they haven't been difficult to do. I mean you know, I can do. You know construction work. I mean I can do, you know, I do. You know Gardening and growing things and all kinds of stuff and whatever, raising kids and the whole bit and some of those things as you get doing them.

Speaker 2: 39:16

Of course you're kind of like, every now and again you get difficult things that come up, you know, and you have to, you know, have to deal with it head on. But normally it's kind of like okay, I, you know, I can do this. This is not you know not, you know, not that it's not tough, it is, but you're kind of used to those Feelings and the way you deal with it. But then in this, you know again, for me it is definitely new because I'm coming up against a lot of things that I'm kind of like, geez, I just don't know where to go from here and I'm having to reach out, I'm having to ask the difficult questions, I'm having to try and dig deep and find the answers and you know that happens now Probably on a daily basis, where you know and you really takes you out of your comfort zone. It definitely does.

Speaker 1: 39:57

Yeah, and even she says I dig and respect your sense of humility and that's, and that's what it's thank you, I appreciate that right, sure I'm not, I'm not.

Speaker 2: 40:06

I'm trying to see some of the stuff that's coming up on the chat and everything but. I'm not.

Speaker 1: 40:12

If it's pertinent to the conversation, or a new yeah throw it up on the screen.

Speaker 2: 40:15

So I appreciate everybody's input things it's.

Speaker 1: 40:18

Yeah, you know it's. It's. It's hard because when, when we look at things and we look at the situation, I've burnt myself out up in there. I've done videos on it, I've done, you know, I've had when all while on here to talk about it, me and her did an episode a few weeks back, or maybe actually no, I think that was our first episode, so it's probably about two months ago now when she was first on. You know, we've had these discussions and it's just it's really difficult because we become so afraid to step away Because, like I said, if you're not learning, then you fall behind. If you're not, if you're not constantly doing, then you risk falling behind. But the reality of it is it's okay, you can get caught back up as long as you get back to learning. Yeah, the world is not gonna end if you say you know, what.

Speaker 1: 41:14

I'ma shut my mouth If you say you know. But I'ma shut my computer, my phone, my TV, everything off for a weekend and go out camping and get away from everybody.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Yeah the world's not gonna end. Yeah, you're still gonna have your job, you're still gonna be able to go back, you're still gonna be be able to do all things I got yelled at. But so so I have. I am the practice manager for the implement, for security engineering at my company and my buddy is for operations. He does once everything is engineered and installed. He does the managed services side of things. And On Monday I was on my work computer Just tie up some loose ends doing some things and he knew I was on PTO all week and he legitimately yelled at me to get off of teams. It was like stopping Because he knows, yeah, I let my team for the same thing when you're on PTO, don't sign in, don't do. When it you're gone, you're out. Yeah, I hit him up, I text him. I was like homie, I'm gonna have like a hundred emails on Monday, if not more. He goes only a hundred.

Speaker 2: 42:22

I'm like shut up life will go on, right. Right, that that's the thing. Like life always goes on, and it's the same. I beat myself up over that all the time too. You know where I'm kind of like I don't feel like you know, I want to take the time away and like it's like I'm gonna miss something. But I always look at it kind of similar to you know what, when maybe money's not so great and everything, and you're like you know what, I need to take my loved one out, my partner, wife, husband, whatever, and it's gonna cost 50 bucks, but right now that seems tight, but at the end of the day, you know what, next week you won't even remember that you spent that 50 bucks, or you know. So it's at the end of the day, you need to do that, you need to, you know, need to take that time. And I mean I took time away because I I said I got started in this just as COVID was hitting. I did my comp to you exam Right at the start of COVID, basically.

Speaker 2: 43:11

So you know I mean, and then, you know, just about a year after that, I, you know, while we were in the middle of everything, I had to take some time away. And you know what I didn't? Yeah, maybe I missed some things during that time, but you get right back on the horse and you go again like that's you know. But you got to realize that you know. Yeah, maybe you know the a few months have gone by, but you haven't really lost right and you just get back up and start again and get back to your research and learning and so I'm gonna bring up Adrian's Comment American mindset work yourself into the ground for that American dream and I know you're not in America, tim, but I believe, I believe the same thing, right, yeah it's just keep working and and and.

Speaker 1: 43:58

Here's the thing about that is, you don't have to do that, not, especially not in this industry, don't get me wrong. When we were, when you, if you were paid hourly and here's the kicker that a lot of people don't realize If you are not paid hourly, what does working 80 hours a week get you? Burnt out, pissed?

Speaker 1: 44:19

off, yeah, angry, yeah, exactly yeah if you are not running a business. What does 80 hours a week get you? Burnt out, pissed off and angry? Yeah, unless there is a reason for you to work that extra mile. Now, I'm not talking about your own call that week. Someone calls you at 10 o'clock at night and says, hey, we have a breach, we need you to help out. No, no, I'm talking about, hey, your hours are from 9 to 5 or 8 to 5 or whatever the case may be, and you're still working at 8 o'clock at night. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:52

Dude, if you don't have a deadline to meet, if you don't have, like, a client project that needs turned in that night, hands down before midnight, it needs done or needs to be there before start a business the next day, why, why? Why put that pressure on yourself? And for PTO Look, I have unlimited PTO. Even if I didn't especially if I didn't actually, let's be honest, especially if I didn't have unlimited PTO my PTO is my time off. I am it's paid. I earn that shit. It is Time off. I'm out bitches. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:28

Take it. Yeah, for sure. Why work when you're supposed to have paid time off? Yeah, I. That's all the effort, get rid of it.

Speaker 2: 45:37

Yeah, definitely seeing it in too many cases. And, like I said, and I know people who are in, you know, in the IT space, who, yeah, they're, they're on salary and they're putting in all this extra time. That's not, like I said again, emergency or emergencies, right, like. So, if that's your team you're working on, project needs to be done at a certain date and, oops, all of a sudden, something you know, you discover a breach. Last minute, all of a sudden, you got to go in take care of things.

Speaker 2: 46:03

Sure, I, but on a regular basis, consistently putting in that extra time that's not necessary, only because you feel like that's the only way to accomplish things, is not, it's not, is not healthy, and I think it's definitely an important thing to remember. And that even goes for your study time, you know, even if you're just starting to get in, like you know, I mean, take your time, you know, take your breaks, take your family time, take your, you know what you gotta do, things that you, you enjoy outside of that. And again, sometimes I just take off, you know, and just that's it, I'm out, I'm not, you know, I'm not burning myself out for this, right?

Speaker 1: 46:39

so, and I really love what Natalie's thing is, because summer I like cooler weather, I love hoody weather. Right, yeah, in spring I'm going to go. But she says I personally use the winter to delve into work and then summer is my me time and that makes sense because you can do vacation, go to the beach, you can With a ton of different things. I don't blame her for that, do we have All right?

Speaker 1: 47:04

so it's always, always sweater weather, ryan well, this is true where you're at, it's always. But I do have another one here and I want you to touch in on this for a little bit. Where to go? Hold on, I'm there, we go. I have to set limits for myself or I will not stop studying, so I'm gonna let you go solo for a little bit. Yeah, touch on this, because limits are very important.

Speaker 2: 47:33

Yeah, I like it's definitely you've got to, and lots of times I will write down even blocks of time for myself, right where I, you know, I just know I need those, those you know kind of stop times and whether that was even studying back in a one of us. Are you for this, you know, for my, for my certifications and things like that. You just got to set the limits and really it's, it's Just as simple as you know, saying, okay, I've done, you know, two hours of study or done two hours working on, you know, on these, you know log files or whatever, and just having to take the time, you know to then say, okay, I, you know, put in two hours, let's give myself a fifteen minute break. Or put in three hours, let's take a half hour and take some downtime and do something you love like for me it probably be pick up a guitar or listen to some music or do whatever have a glass of red wine or something. You know red wine and chocolate was my go to when I was studying.

Speaker 2: 48:36

But so, you know, I mean that's, you know you really got to put the limits, you know, as much as you put the limits on yourself for anything else, right, you know Not to over indulge in things. You know also don't over indulge in, you know, draining the whatever out of yourself just to get you know where the next step. Again, like I said, if it's not, you know, an emergency, right, if it's not something that has to be done now, set your limits, stick to them, write them down. If you have to, I mean there's all. We got all kinds of programs available to us, all kinds of apps, timers, whatever. Use them, you know, take advantage of them. And you know I have a buddy call. You say let's go for a beer, let's go do what you know. And just exactly, if I had some here now, I'd be drinking.

Speaker 2: 49:22

Unfortunately not I show by now. I know I was like.

Speaker 1: 49:31

Yeah, you're not wrong, and that's one of those things is I did. I've been there. I spent every waking night. I would go hours and hours on end of when I was in the army I would work all day and then, of course, being an nco, you're always Serving. Somebody can call you at any time of day, so I work all day. I come home my computer was in my living room so my wife would put on tv, we'd watch something, but then I would be on my computer and I'll be working on a certification or my degree or something always going, going, going, going, never stop, unless I was grilling and drinking a beer. That was about the only time I stepped away from my computer. So I was in like four bra.

Speaker 1: 50:19

When I was in four bragg, north carolina, I had about two hours that I was not working towards bettering myself. I say bettering because really what I was doing with burning myself out which is what actually the sad part about it is, that's what pushed me into management is because I got away from the technical. I can still do the technical. I still do it now, my job, not as often now I'm in charge, but I still step in and take charge and do the hands on stuff when I need to.

Speaker 1: 50:50

It's just it's why my tech Tuesdays have suffered. It's why certain aspects of who I am have kind of fallen to the wayside, where I do the research and do the tech work when I have to. But that's not what I want to specialize in anymore. It's just not who I am. I am a motivator. I am someone who likes to inspire others, you know, encourage others to keep going. But it's because I burnt myself out. I really burnt the candle on both ends and, especially when it came to technical, got to the point where I was just like I'm out bitches, you have it yeah, and that's the thing that.

Speaker 2: 51:27

And there's never. You know, when it comes to these things, like I said, you know, yeah, there's deadlines and everything else, but I mean there's there's never an end sometimes to the technical stuff, right, you know, and you know you can keep going down that. You know that rabbit hole, you know you can do that forever and you know, try and figure it, the ins and outs of everything. But you know, yeah, at some point you got to kind of just yeah, hands up, and just, you know, give it up for a bit and take a break, and just, you know, refresh yourself, right.

Speaker 1: 51:57

Yeah, definitely, and I look at it and I am someone who I still get intrigued. They still there are still certain aspects that will will grab my attention. Like cally purple came out yeah, it grabbed my attention. I did a video on it maybe to, but I haven't gone any further than that because I just don't have it in me to keep digging into it. I'm like that's a lot of stuff that I'm just like do I really want to do a video? Am I really gonna give a different perspective than somebody else? Because I'm just gonna do an overview of the shit. I'm not gonna show you the tolls, I'm not gonna dig into this holes, explain what they are and go about my way like am I really doing anything different?

Speaker 2: 52:41

Yeah that's what I've been trying to just limit myself to the things that are pertinent to what I'm doing right now. And it's a difficult thing to do because, again, squirrel right and you like, okay, something else over there. Oh, there's something else you know, but that's yeah, we, we, you know we definitely tend to do that, but yeah, you kind of got it, got to Limit yourself. You know two things that are really in front of you and what's gonna help you accomplish. You know the immediate. You know go right.

Speaker 1: 53:10

Yeah, and for me, it's always. For me, especially right now moving up in my career, it's, it's helping others. Any way I can. That is, that is legitimately all I I you know really concentrate on and try to do, and that is where my whole channel, and where everything is kind of gone and taken off from, is just that motivation, that inspiration type of aspect.

Speaker 1: 53:37

Yeah, and it doesn't mean I'm not in cyber security doesn't mean cyber, or your studios doesn't mean cyber. What it means is there are more than one, at least there is more than one aspect of cyber than just hands on keyboard. There is more than one aspect of what we do To then then just breaking into shit, or, or you know this. At the third, there's mental health, there's, you know, staying inspired. There's so much more to our careers and our people are persons. Then just one thing and for me it's explaining that and taking it from there, it just takes a hell of a lot more. What you're saying makes me feel so much better myself, my future. I got as far as you got and I was very sick, but one of all, when, when I walk, when I walk, she's gonna kill me I'm not even gonna attempt.

Speaker 1: 54:33

He's gonna kill me. She was on. I had it perfect when she was on two weeks ago or last week, whatever was. She's gonna kill me, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:48

You want me to attempt it, but no I do.

Speaker 1: 54:52

I think holly parple has a lot of good features about it. I'm still a huge fan of parent sec. It has the anon mode. It was built on security, was built for security, was built with security in mind. So it allows you to go anonymous. It filters everything to tour. No, that's not guaranteed anonymity, but you know, it's just one of those things that I prefer parents, I, I, I, I, these other versions, just to show them the people. But yeah, I'll be parent security hands down all the time. But she did say Muah, now what?

Speaker 2: 55:28

Oh, no, muah now, oh one, now one hour. There we go.

Speaker 1: 55:35

One hour.

Speaker 2: 55:35

Perfect, got it.

Speaker 1: 55:41

I am weird, don't judge me.

Speaker 2: 55:42

There's nothing wrong with that. Weirds the way to go.

Speaker 1: 55:47

I heard I love being weird. My wife married me because I'm weird.

Speaker 2: 55:53

Yeah, I know that's probably how I've got most what I have. In life now is being weird.

Speaker 1: 55:58

Right, my wife was. My wife calls me weird all the time or crazy, and I'm like, yeah, what's that make you? I know, worse huh, love her of the weird Goes into a circle. It literally is just. Yeah. Keeps continuing, I'm like you know, this can be an endless loop. I'm out.

Speaker 2: 56:14

I know my wife's the total opposite of me. She's, like, you know, very quiet, very, you know just very sweet and very, you know, and I'm like I'm just allowed, I'm out there always doing crazy stuff, you know, trying to figure out crazy stuff, and that's, you know, that's what a lot of this is, right. You're just kind of, you know, trying to figure out some of the crazy, of the crazy, right?

Speaker 1: 56:34

So Well, when I think with, with cybersecurity, when you're looking at, you know, stock analysts, transitioning careers, whatever you're trying to do, it's crazy. It's that shit crazy. Yeah, because you're looking at people that are, you know, in their mid 30s, late 30s, 40s, 50s, sometimes in their 60s, you know, like you know what I got to get a new career. Shit.

Speaker 1: 56:58

So I'm scared, let's go. And it's like a lot of them will really drop everything and just go full bore into it. And I commend them. I commend them a hundred percent. I'm like yo, let's go, If you got the gall to do that shit.

Speaker 2: 57:14

Let's not yeah for sure.

Speaker 1: 57:16

Let's go at it, because it means you have more passion and more drive than some of these teenagers coming out of college or high school or something like that, because you're going to go full bore into it and you know it's going to mean something to you. Now, the caveat to that is if you're doing it because you don't get paid enough, that's where I have an issue.

Speaker 2: 57:36

Yeah, no, it can't be. You know, it can't be just about the dollar, right, like I mean that's for me, like I said, a lot of it was just it was, yeah, it was the transition, you know, needing the transition from, you know, very physical and plus, I mean I'd done a lot of, you know, physical jobs. I mean I've done so. I can't even begin to spout off the things that I've done, but you know, at this stage in life it was kind of like, yeah, you know my kids are older, you know I probably want to do, you know, a little travel over time as well.

Speaker 2: 58:11

My wife and I like to, you know, see new places and do new things and we also, you know, would like to have a little bit of freedom. So, you know, there's also that that comes with it, sometimes as far as mobility and whatever. But I mean it's, but you can't take away from the fact that it's hard work. It's a lot of learning, you know, and but it doesn't involve me beating the crap out of my body, you know. So my mind, you know that was gone a long time ago.

Speaker 1: 58:39

So I'm supposed to be supposed to have a like sanity? No way.

Speaker 2: 58:45

No, I'm out. That's gone, gone completely. So I don't think there's anybody who knows me who would say there's any sanity.

Speaker 1: 58:57

Yeah, and it's, and it's one of those things. And it's funny too, because Amanda just said and this is Amanda, I'm just excited my favorite hobby is actually a career. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:07

And this comes down to it. And so me and her good friend she's one of my sisters, she's a warrior, she's she's family. She means a lot to me. You know, I'm the one that talked to her into going into cybersecurity. She told me what she did, what she likes to do and kind of where her niche is, and it's like, all right, cool, let's get these basic foundations under you and then we're going to find you a career and a job because it fits what you're doing. We just got to find the right terminology to mesh with the career field. But she does a hell of a lot more than I do. Hell, she's a lot better at what she does than I can do. So I don't even try to compare myself to her. She'll put me to shame if I start taking into it.

Speaker 2: 59:49

Well, I think that's the thing with you know again, people who have life experience with other things too right Is that you've got a lot of soft skills that you need, you know, and and you know, depending on where you go, even in cybersecurity they're you know, whatever niche you go into. I mean, sometimes the tech skills are super heavy, sometimes they're not quite so heavy, so you can kind of pick and choose your. You know your path when it comes to that, right? Oh for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

And that's, and that's the thing, right, you know, in this, in this industry and we're going to wrap it up and get your your last words here in a little bit but in this industry you have two sets of people. You have the very technical that have no soft skills, which means they can do all the fucking work but they can't talk to any of the clients or any of the executives. They're good people, they know their shit. They'll know more than I ever know. Go for it, homie, I will sick you on whatever technology you want. Go for it.

Speaker 1: 1:00:44

Yeah, then you have the ones that have a lot of soft skills. Well, I mean, there's an intermediary also, but really what we see a lot of is you have the ones that have the soft skills. They can do the reports, they can talk to the executives, they can interact with clients, they can do all this other stuff and they can talk to talk to the clients. They can talk to talk. They can't actually put their hands on the tech, but they know what they're talking about. They can sell it, they can. They can consult on it, they can do so many other things, but to actually get in there and do the work is a whole different story. Finding someone that can do both is few and far between. It's not impossible, it's just few and far between, because a lot of your techies are extreme introverts that don't want to talk to fucking anybody.

Speaker 1: 1:01:29

Yeah, they want to speak to themselves. They want to stay to themselves. Leave them alone give them a car to go into and they'll be happy. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

Your, your socialites, your, your consultants, your people that can talk to others but not necessarily do the tech work anymore. They're more extroverted. That's what they do is is interact with others on a daily basis. They have this charisma about them to be able to do these things, but they can't necessarily put their hands on the tech anymore. Regardless of whatever the reason is, they either move out of it or something happened. Then you have your middle people that somehow can manage to do both. They're an oddity, but they exist.

Speaker 2: 1:02:10

I'm hoping I can get there. Somewhere in between Oddity, but they exist yeah for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:02:17

But look, before we go, it is over the top of the hour. I want to get your final words, any advice, any, any words of wisdom, anything you can give to all those that are watching or going to be watching here. What advice can you give them to entering cyber security, getting into cyber security, being in cyber security? Whatever you got, let's give some more advice.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

I think you know, really, you know it has to be a little bit of a long game. And you know, just, look, do some research on even a niche that you're looking for in particular, whether it be blue team, red team, purple team or whatever and you know, look, I mean there's all kinds of lists that I found online for you know what are the requirements to be a SOC analyst or what are the requirements to be a pen tester or whatever. Take those things and then kind of work yourself backward and, you know, find the people, the tools that are going to help you and reach out, reach out to people like you know, cyber war is a great place, you know. I mean it's been great support Lots of other people on LinkedIn. If you start to reach out and build that rapport and build those relationships with people, they'll find the stuff you need. You don't have to be at it alone, you know, just because all of a sudden you saw something new that you wanted to get into with.

Speaker 2: 1:03:30

You know, cybersecurity sounds exciting and interesting, but there's lots of people out here that are willing to help out and actually I got to be honest in all the things I've done in my life in. You know it's been a good few years in the workforce. It's one of the places that I've found the most supportive people and helpful people. So that's probably the biggest advice Just reach out to you know, start to build a rapport with people. Just kind of go full bore, you know yelling at people as you know well, help me, help me, help me, kind of thing. Just start to build that rapport with people and people have been. I've really found there have been very few people that were not willing to stop for a moment what they were doing and take the time to help you out, and I think that's probably the most important advice I can give. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 1:04:16

I can't. I can't disagree with that because, at the end of the day, networking is so huge in our community.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

That's how I've gotten jobs. It is how I've helped others get jobs. It is. It is really really big on what we do. And again, you hit the nail on the head. Don't just go out there full bore of I need a job, I need this advice, I need you know, or I applied a million times. Why didn't you hire me? Or or why did he get an interview? It's literally go in there and develop this relationship, this friendship or, you know, acquaintance, whatever you want to call it. Go in there and develop a personality. Let them get to know who you are and what you're about, and that'll take you a hell of a lot further. And so I think that's huge and something we're missing. I don't know how many sales emails or LinkedIn messages I get of hey, I saw you, I thought you'd be a great connection. Oh, hey, by the way, I sell all this shit. Okay, good for you. I don't care how many be gone. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:05:12

Those are the things that I look at. You want to tell me something. Let's meet at a conference. We'll talk about my. You know who I am, who I work for, kind of my brand, what I do. You tell me about you and we'll have that conversation. But if I'm not at a conference and you're just cold, like messaging me or sending me shit, I don't care about. I'm done, I'm out. Do this is see you later? Yeah, I don't care.

Speaker 2: 1:05:35

Yeah, I wouldn't respond to anything that I wouldn't do myself. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:05:37

Like that's yeah so, but anyways, hey look, it's been great talking to you, Tim. Feel free to hang out in the back for a minute. Otherwise, look everybody in the chat. Make sure like, comment, subscribe and if you are in the chat, please come back after I end this and leave a comment, because it really helps, and also share the episode. Perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:05:57

Otherwise look, I love you all.

Speaker 1: 1:05:58

Take care. You're all my warriors, you're all my family and I'll see you next week with another amazing episode of security. Happy out.

Speaker 2: 1:06:04

Thanks so much.